We've heard it all
"It's terrible how you are so dismissive of the Flow Hive. It is a great option for beekeepers".
"The fact that you give the Flow Hive such praise says a lot - it's an appalling thing for beekeeping".
Yes, we've had these comments about exactly the same article. We do see some humor in this and, quite frankly, "you can't please all the people all the time".
But that's not our intent. In looking at the Flow Hive our intent is to step back from one of the most disruptive technologies to hit beekeeping and provide a balanced view.
There will always be those who consider comments about Flow Hive "extreme" - in ether direction. But the fact that we have had such comments from both ends of the continuum is perhaps a clue that we have found at least some balance.
So, what exactly is this Flow Hive thing? And why is it so controversial? Read on....
How to start a fight among beekeepers!
It's no secret - beekeepers have opinions. Lots of them.
On the one hand, there is the beekeeper who has been successful with beekeeping and swears blind his or her way is the only way!
Or, to the contrary, a beekeeper who experienced a problem with a specific approach or piece of equipment and who will now tell the world that option won't work for anyone. Ever.
Of course, the world isn't always so black and white. Neither are our bees. There is nuance, context, conditions, circumstances and a whole raft of factors that differ between beekeepers.
It is also true that one cannot draw a complete, unarguable conclusion from a small sample size of one beekeeper.
And yet we do - we all do. We try something and it's human nature to assume that our own, personal experience is indicative of world at large.
So, with this tendency for individuals to draw conclusions quickly and with limited data, debates about the "right way" always continue.
But if you REALLY want to set off a heated debate with beekeepers, it is really rather simple.
Walk into a room of beekeepers and just utter two words - FLOW HIVE.
First....watch this
Pretty awesome, eh (even if for just the production values)? The messages relayed in this introductory video have generated a huge interest worldwide and made Flow Hive one of the most successful crowdfunding campaigns in history.
So what is Flow Hive and how valid is it for beekeepers?
The joy of beekeeping
Beekeeping is a wonderful hobby, enjoyed by beekeepers worldwide. It has so many aspects that keep us engaged and intrigued. These range from the science to the delight in nature. In addition, there is always the chance of companionship and community with fellow beekeepers.
The hands-on nature of beekeeping is a special and valued element many beekeepers. Throw in the colorful advantages bees bring through pollination and the sense that, as a beekeeper, you are helping the environment and the joy of beekeeping is clear. For many, beekeeping is a labor of love, requiring attention and a focus on understanding your bees.
Many beekeepers consider these factors very positive aspects of beekeeping. They are not looking for a quick way to obtain honey (they have the local supermarket for that!). Rather, they value their "guardianship" with bees. These are precisely the things that make beekeeping so enjoyable for so many beekeepers.
To top it all off there is the possibility of beautiful, sweet honey from your own bees.
What could be better?
The problem Flow Hive claims to solve
The harvesting of honey isn't the most straightforward of beekeeping tasks. While there are an ever-increasing number of tools available to extract honey from the comb, it does take a little time, as we will discover elsewhere.
Flow Hive is a testimonial to the power of Internet Marketing, YouTube, some very creative engineering and tens of millions of dollars in investment. It has generated excitement and a belief in many that it offers the keys - literally - to easy honey.
At first blush, their ingenious solution seems like a breakthrough in beehive design. It's gone viral and excited many people around the world, with its potential for "turn-a-tap" honey.
But does it really work? How well does Flow Hive deliver on this vision and are there any drawbacks?
Our attempt at a balanced view
In this article, PerfectBee takes a close and balanced look at the Flow Hive. As you read this, know one thing - there will be fellow readers who look at the title and immediately know where they stand.
Many beekeepers fall into two buckets, with respect to Flow Hive:
- "Nothing needs fixing" beekeepers: These folks have very strong opinions that traditional approaches to beekeeping have worked for hundreds of years, so why change? While there's some logic to that - and traditional approaches do work - if nothing ever challenged and potentially improves the status quo then we stay stuck in the dark ages. Progress can be difficult, but it can also be very good.
- "Get with the program" beekeepers: Aside from being drawn to the promise of easy honey, some Flow Hive beekeepers like it because, frankly, it's cool and it's awesome to be on the leading edge! Anyone not following that lead is something of a Luddite! OK - but progress for progress' sake is never good. There need to be distinct benefits outweighing the drawbacks.
The Flow Hive is very polarizing. In this article, we look past the stubborn refusal to even consider the Flow Hive that you will note from many beekeepers. We provide you with facts from which you can make your own decision, based on your own circumstances and objectives.
It is our hope this article is informative, unbiased, fair and useful to you if you are considering the Flow Hive. And then the debate will continue...
What exactly is Flow Hive?
The Flow Hive was invented by a father and son team of Aussie beekeepers who wanted an easier, less invasive way to harvest honey from Langstroth hives. They had a vision, researched it, designed a solution, raised funding and have created a successful business from this idea. We give them huge credit for going after a vision and executing on it so successfully.
But what IS it?
Flow Frame
The core idea behind Flow Hive is a sophisticated and fascinating frame, the Flow Frame. This is where all the magic happens. The frame includes a plastic foundation with partially-formed cells that can be "opened" with the turn of a key. The process is as follows:
- Your bees complete the cells with beeswax
- They then fill the cells with honey
- Next they cap the cells (place a thin layer of wax on top to retain the honey)
- At the time you want your honey, you insert a key into the Flow Frame and turn it to open the cells, allowing the honey to flow downwards, by gravity
- After you have collected your honey in jars you turn the key back and your bees get back to work again
Simple.
Here is another beautifully-produced video describing the harvesting process:
Flow Frame
The Flow Hive folks made some smart design decisions. Rather than design a solution completely from scratch, they recognized the widespread use of Langstroth hives worldwide. The Flow Frame is designed to fit into a standard Langstroth box (8 or 10 frames). That allows beekeepers to start using Flow Hive with a smaller investment, simply by placing a few frames in their existing box (note: Flow Frames are wider than traditional frames, so a 10 frame Langstroth box only takes 7 Flow Frames).
The one qualifier is that to support the tubes and key of the Flow Frame, the box must be modified, as demonstrated in this video:
Flow Super
Anyone is invested in the idea of the Flow Hive might want to consider an entire Flow Super (box). This is a complete box with the aforementioned access for tubes and the key already built in, with Flow Frames inside. Again, this is designed to confirm to standard Langstroth dimensions.
Flow Hive
Of course, if you want to go the whole way, the good folks at Flow Hive will sell you, well, a Flow Hive. That's a complete hive, with Flow Supers and Flow Frames.
The Flow Hive is available in pine or, for a higher-end beehive, cedar.
Other Components
The remaining components are identical to those of a regular Langstroth hive: a base with screened bottom board, roof, inner cover and so on.
Benefits of Flow Hive
Let's face it - this is a clever design. The Flow Hive folks have a laser focus on a problem they have identified, namely the slightly cumbersome nature of harvesting honey with traditional hives. They then created a product that is clever, reasonably effective at what it claims to do and marketed quite superbly!
The big selling point, of course, is the amazing sight of a beekeeper turning a key and seeing beautiful honey drop so enticingly into large jars.
Another benefit touted by Flow Hive is the minimized disruption to the bees when the honey is harvested. No need to open a box and take out a frame at a time - just turn a key.
In summary, the benefits of Flow Hive are rather obvious, in terms of the convenience of harvesting honey.
Issues with Flow Hive
Plastic Foundation
We have looked in some detail at natural beekeeping. Natural beekeepers like to leave as much as possible to the bees, on the assumption that their success surviving in natural settings speaks volumes.
Perhaps the most central question a beekeeper has to make about his/her approach to beekeeping is whether to use foundation. The typical Langstroth hive features frames with foundation, although it's perfectly feasible to use foundationless frames in the Langstroth.
Why does that cause consternation to many? Two principle reasons - cell size and foundation material.
- Cell Size: In nature, bees create cells of different sizes, depending on their needs. For example, drone cells are larger than worker cells. Left to their own devices, bees just do whatever is necessary. When we use frames with foundation, we effectively make this decision for the bees. The cells are a uniform size and so bees compromise. This is a problem for proponents of natural beekeeping and, many would argue, the bees!
- Cell Material: Foundation is often made of plastic and covered in wax (the Flow Hive foundation is just plastic). This compares poorly with comb made naturally by our bees, on many levels.
Flow Hive uses man-made, plastic foundation. While this is a concern to many, there are also many Langstroth beekeepers who use plastic-only foundation (though many do purchase plastic frames covered with beeswax, which is not an option with Flow Hive). If one happens to accept that plastic-only foundation is acceptable, then Flow Hive is no worse.
Awareness of Mites and Other Threats
In Part 3 : A Healthy Beehive we will look at the various threats to bees. One of the most impactful in the US is the varroa mite. This has been in the US for many years and is the bane of many a beekeeper's life. It has, indeed, had a dramatic and lasting effect on beekeeping.
We will look at what beekeepers can do to assess and address the threat of mites and other threats, but the bottom line is that it takes vigilance and attention, even to simply know there is a problem.
One of the concerns often voiced about Flow Hive that not all corners of the hive are accessible during an inspection. The Flow Frames are a "closed system". Although there are other reasons to want to look at all frames in a hive, the inability to observe what is happening on the cells of a Flow Frame is a concern.
By the way, the varroa mite is not a factor in Australia, where the Flow Hive was designed.
Relationship with Bees
One of the joys of beekeeping is found in developing a bond with your bees. This differs between beekeepers but it's fair to say Flow Hive abstracts away at least a part of that intense interaction.
Many beekeepers want the exact opposite. They actually WANT the opportunity to get into the hive and experience their bees up close, in all boxes in the hive. For traditional beekeepers, that time with their bees - watching and learning - is the most rewarding of all.
Flow Hive very specifically focuses on minimizing the effort involved in harvesting honey and, with that, some say it loses much of the magic of beekeeping.
But we believe this does need to be considered in a balanced way. In the same way that Flow Hive sometimes overstates the ease with which honey can be produced, its critics can also often be accused of an overly negative perspective.
One such example is the suggestion that Flow Hive means you can't open your hive for an inspection. That is simply not true. While the individual frame is a closed system, a "hybrid" hive may include a number of Flow Frames alongside regular frames.
Further, one of the most essential elements of any inspection - where the real "forensics" are most evident - is in the lower brood box. The Flow Hive doesn't constrain that at all, since the brood box does NOT include a Flow Frame. So, that brood inspection is just as relevant - and important - to a Flow Hive as to a traditional hive. It is in the inspection of honey boxes where the Flow Hive becomes more of a closed system.
Here's an example of a "hyrid" beehive.
As you can see, it's very feasible to inspect a Flow Hive in this manner.
Cost
Today beekeeping isn't quite the low-cost hobby it used to be. Purchasing the hive, the various components as the colony grows, accessories, tools, clothing and even the bees all adds up. But there are price points at each of these levels, including "budget products". Beekeeping is still very much within the realm of most people looking for a new and exciting hobby.
Flow Hive doesn't focus on lowering the cost of beekeeping! That isn't the objective and, sure enough, it is an expensive product - some would say VERY expensive. If you are looking at a Flow Hive primarily to obtain lots of honey, easily and cheaply then this is not for you.
At the time of writing (Dec 2017), representative prices are as follows (we are linking to the Flow Hive pages if you wish to check current prices). NOTE: For comparison purposes, many of the comparisons here are for cedar boxes, which is a premium, high-end wood, with multiple benefits. However, the use of pine can lower the prices considerably.
- A Classic 7 Flow Frame, which fills a 10 frame Langstroth box is $447. By comparison, a 10-pack of SuperFrames (plastic foundation, coated with beeswax) retails for $33.00.
- A Classic Cedar 7 Flow Super, complete with 7 Flow Frames is $527. By comparison, a 10 frame Cedar Deep box retails for $99 (for a comparison, the SuperFrames might be added) and pine boxes are MUCH lower cost at around $22.
- A Flow Hive Classic Cedar hive (including Flow Frames) is $699. By comparison, a 10 Frame Deep Cedar Langstroth kit retails for $329 (again, SuperFrames would need to be added for a fair comparison). An entry-level pine hive, with SuperFrames, would be around $150.
Note: Don't forget shipping costs - a Flow Frame costs from $25 to $40 to ship to the US. A Flow Hive is around $85. As a comparison point, PerfectBee offers free shipping on all orders above $75.
Let's be totally clear about these comparisons. The Flow Hive folks will quite reasonably claim it's not a fair comparison. With the Flow Hive, you are paying for a new technology with some very impressive design factors (you are also paying for some pretty awesome marketing!). More importantly, you don't need harvesting equipment - the Flow Hive IS the harvesting equipment.
With a regular Langstroth hive, there are various ways you can harvest your honey. These range from a rather low cost to very expensive. So those would need to be factored in to drive a true comparison.
If, however, you looking at Flow Hive as a way to keep costs low, then you are looking in the wrong place! It simply isn't a cheap way to get into beekeeping.
Summary
The inventors of the Flow Hive have created something very impressive. We can’t fault anyone for developing something revolutionary, to solve a problem. It is clear that the product has spawned an interest in folks who would otherwise have been unaware or have no interest in beekeeping. If this results in a curious beekeeper, eager to learn and ready to form his or her opinions, through education, then this is the proverbial good thing.
PerfectBee believes the best and most successful beekeepers are those who develop a sincere interest in what their bees do, with a view to constantly learning. Such a beekeeper isn't particularly concerned about how long it takes to harvest honey because that is far from the most important or interesting part of beekeeping. Indeed, many beekeepers enjoy the harvesting of honey as part if the overall fun of beekeeping. That beekeeper also wants to look closely at the forensic evidence visible at each inspection, throughout the hive.
With these thoughts in mind, PerfectBee does not recommend starting beekeeping with Flow Hive alone. Doing so will isolate you from interesting and essential lessons you need to learn early in your beekeeping days, beyond the brood box. There is also considerable education value in the act of harvesting honey, which is "hidden" when one merely turns a key.
To be an effective and educated beekeeper, you need to be learning from your bees constantly. That means gaining knowledge from each and every inspection. The time when you start out is not the best time to create a technological barrier to that knowledge.
We recommend following a more traditional path with either a Langstroth, Warre or Top Bar hive.
But...
We also don't totally dismiss the Flow Hive. If you are really set on looking into this and your pockets are deep enough, the availability of the Flow Super, installable in a regular Langstroth box (with modification), gives you a way to check it out without compromising your whole beekeeping education up front.
A Classic 3 Flow Frame, for example, allows you to replace some - but not all - of the frames in a traditional Langstroth, albeit with some modification to the box being necessary. For those with deep pockets and a real curiosity about Flow Hive, this might be a reasonable small step that balances the attraction of "turn-a-key" honey with the need to understand what is happening in each box.
And if quick honey is all important to you - just drop by the supermarket.
So - let the debate continue!
17 thoughts on “A Detailed Look at Flow Hive”
Albert Swan,
As stated often, the FH is just a lazy way to extract honey. After that you need to be serious about beekeeping. It would appear that a double Langstroth brood Chamber would be recommended to reduce the chance of swarming. Or, one would have to make splits as normal.
When it comes to harvesting honey you may have challenges with thick, heavy honey, thereby making extraction difficult. Also, even with light, thin honeys, you will never end with dry cells as would be the case in traditional honey harvesting using an extracter. The FH does not appear to be one for commercial honey producing beekeepers..
Not good as a gift unless the recipient is serious about bee keeping and interested in beekeeping.
I’m enjoying your information very much. I was initially very excited by the idea of keeping bees with the Flow Hive. I thought the ease of harvesting would be a bit better for someone with disabilities and that the observation windows would be a fine experience for my grandchildren. The Flow folks emphasized my need for assistance if unable to lift heavy hives and perform inspections. This caused me to read more extensively. As a result I learned about natural bee keeping, foundationless frames, etc. Price was also a drawback since I’m on a fixed income. I live in the Upper Penninsula of Michigan so need to keep winters in mind. So much to learn! It’s exciting. A beekeeper shared some Langstroth hives and I am adding an observation box and using foundationless frames. My son will help with the heavy lifting. In conclusion, I may never have attempted bee keeping without the buzz about the Flow Hive. If for no other reason I appreciate them.
I bought the new flow hive 2 and a regular Langstroth as my first beehives!
I , also would like to know what happens to the wax cappings. It appears that the back of the cell is broken and the honey flows out where the bees are not ; however, what happens to the wax caps, as it doesn’t appear to flow with the honey.
Ron Lane, are you in OR? Oregon State University?
Used to live in OR in the Willamette Valley & when I move back I think the difference between beekeeping in dryer Boulder, CO vs. wetter Eugene, OR will be a nice learning curve. (Sometime in the future)
Thanks
Cool stuff
I thought this was a very well balanced article. I can see where the Flow Hive would be attractive to some people. Extracting honey is laborious — and if that’s what you are into beekeeping for, it makes sense to invest in it.
I for one am interested in the bees themselves — and want to learn to do everything the “old fashioned” way before I venture off into new territory.
I am curious about one thing though, do Flow Hive owners miss out on beeswax?
Thank you again for the wealth of information you provide! 🙂
I did not see or hear on the videos what happens to the cappings? How is the sealed “comb” reused once the honey is emptied when they have been capped prior to being drained?
This unit has taught me that I have more options with bee hives. As a new bee keeper, it can be overwhelming. I am very Enlightened.
Only thing I might change with your article is at the end to tell them to find a local beekeeper for honey not the supermarket. Other than that I think you covered it well from both sides.
How does the flow hive differentiate between cured honey and unripe nectar? I don’t believe it does and both will be harvested which can lead to fermentation.
If infected with American foulbrood beekeepers are instructed to burn the equipment. Due to the cost of the flow hive I seriously doubt beekeepers will burn it, likely meaning the spread of AFB to neighboring hives.
And one last comment based on first hand experience. Most the beekeepers I know that purchased a flow hive wanted it for easy honey. To me this encourages “lazy” beekeeping. Obviously there will be exceptions, but humans being what they are, it encourages lazy keeps to take up beekeeping and the last thing our bees need are even more beekeepers that are not willing to put in the work required to keep a healthy hive.
“One of the joys of beekeeping is found in developing a bond with your bees. This differs between beekeepers but it’s fair to say Flow Hive abstracts away at least a part of that intense interaction.
Many beekeepers want the exact opposite. They WANT the opportunity to get into the hive and experience their bees up close. For traditional beekeepers, that time with their bees – watching and learning – is the most rewarding of all.
Flow Hive very specifically focuses on minimizing the effort involved in harvesting honey and, with that, some say it loses much of the magic of beekeeping.”
As a Flow Hive owner, I have to say that this conclusion is not based in fact. Other than the flow hive frames themselves, for the collection of honey, there is zero difference between traditional beekeeping and using a Flow Hive. The interaction is exactly the same. The care is exactly the same. The concerns are exactly the same. The relationship is the exactly the same. When a traditional beekeeper puts on their honey super with a queen excluder, there is exactly no difference from putting on the Flow Hive super. Concerns over the foundation are, frankly, unfounded as that foundation is not used by the hive for rearing of brood — that’s all done below with exactly the same equipment/techniques done with traditional Langstroth methods. While you may not have tried to knock it so hard, the simple truth of the matter is that Flow Hive has definitely raised the awareness level of both the need for and the plain awesomeness of beekeeping, and if that raises the profile of bees and encourages more people to invest in them, that’s a good thing. Remember, I – and every other Flow Hive owner – still need to buy supplies and materials for my hive — I’m far more likely to buy from providers who aren’t looking down their nose at me.
Perfectbee is just telling it like it is. Why hold a grudge (“I’m far more likely to buy from providers who aren’t looking down their nose at me”) against the messenger? This is a fair and balanced piece that covers both sides of issue. Perfectbee provides excellent equipment for a very fair price. More than anything else we need suppliers who are honest about what it takes to keep bees and provide the information necessary for beekeepers to make educated decisions instead of just focusing on what makes them the most money. You may not agree with everything said, but you don’t need too. Stopping the “flow” of material that is educational to beginning beekeepers is not what beekeepers or the bees need. To each his own and it should be left at that instead of condemning someone.
Ron Lane – Master Beekeeper instructor for OSU
I have already encountered the very diametrically opposed viewpoints on the Flow Hive. I don’t care for it because I’m getting into beekeeping to interact with the bees and I have always had an interest in biological sciences. To separate myself from the bees with technology seems counterintuitive to me. And, as I work all day with technology, I’d rather not focus all my efforts on technology with the bees. I also don’t believe that you knocked the Flow Hive too hard. Again, you laid out the advantages and the potential disadvantages. I also think you pointed out the expense. With all of the other expenses of starting a hive of bees, that is a prohibitive cost factor.
This is far from a fair and balanced article!! Just sayin. I think there is a very happy middle ground here. In fact, the flow hive folks encourage buyers not to take honey from bees in the first couple of seasons. This is a perfect time for beekeepers to learn the tricks of the trade with a two deep brood configuration. Once you do this, The FlowHive is simply a honey super. It comes on and off just like any other honey super after a flow. I think you should try it before you knock it so hard.
Tom, thank you so much for your comment.
The irony is that we have received eMails from a few folks who have (very pointedly) stated that we have been far too receptive to the Flow Hive. As you are probably aware, there are many beekeepers who are extremely dismissive of Flow Hive – in every regard.
We did indeed try to look at this from a more balanced perspective. While we clearly have a difference of opinion over whether we struck that balance (and this is all very subjective, of course), we would suggest that an article that includes…
“……created a product that is clever, reasonably effective and marketed quite superbly!”
“….the suggestion that Flow Hive means you can’t open your hive for an inspection. That is simply not true.”
“The inventors of the Flow Hive have created something very impressive.”
“But we also don’t totally dismiss the Flow Hive….gives you a way to check it out without compromising your whole beekeeping education up front”
…. is not an article where we “knock it so hard”.
Flow-Hive. (FH)
I received one of the first offered, four frame flow hives to add to my Langstroth’s. Works well but in the south US we have small hive beatles (SHB), & left unchecked can multiply & cause a hive to collapse & die in short order.
My observations & hive inspections showed before the bees could really get going to seal up the cracks in the moveable cell Flow-Hive, it quickly became a “Hotel” for the SHB.
You see the cells are deeper in the FH & initially the SHB can go to the bottom of these FH cells & transverse across them avoiding being “herded” or trapped, the natural way our bees control & contain these hive pests. Usually trapping them in corners or slots & often using propolis to seal them in, whereby keeping them in check from laying eggs &/or multiplying.
Left unchecked in 10 hives observed we went from 6 to 7 SHB to 30 in a week & over 100 in the following week before I pulled out the FH, to avoid a full hive contamination.
In full disclosure, thus was late in the Summer (Aug) in Georgia with no nectar flow & our summer darth between spring & fall nectar flows, but identical issues followed the following spring “Before” the flow, (anticipating the coming flow I again put on the FH’s) with the same results. Now fearing they would weaken my colonies prior to the spring flow coming out of winter I again removed the FH’s.
For what it is worth this is my experience.